Justitia Themis

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Posts by Justitia Themis

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  39

  Quentin (from JW-net) is dying

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  quentin robburts has been on jw-net off and on for over 6 years and he is one of my oldest and most loyal friends.. his wife called me awhile ago and gave me the news.. quentin was rushed to the hospital's emergency room with acute renal failure and congestive heart failure.. .

  this does not surprise me for the following reason.

  his pain doctor put him on oxycontin last thursday.

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  Justitia Themis

  I'm so glad the news is not so dire, but Quentin is never going to let you live down this thread Terry!
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  I am also not so convinced that these are "legally useless documents." ...I think that if the JW parent decided to bring a civil suit later for wrongfully transfusing the child, this document would be admissible in that matter to show that the parent was on notice that a transfusion could be given

  JT wrote: It's not just about whether legal rights have been disclaimed or not.

  Actually, the above is precisely what this is all about. The LoU/Acknowledgement Statements are legally useless documents

  It's clear from my statement that I was addressing whether the documents affected legal rights. However, you are correct; they help the hospital/staff meet ethical and notice requirements, as shown from my post below which was copied from the other thread. As I noted earlier, the other thread is a "more complete" discussion, and I invite you to examine it.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/244052/1/Blood-transfusion-Letter-of-Understanding

  The following seems to document the usage of a similar document in a 2006 or 2007 North Carolina case:

  "Hospitals have an ethical obligation to delineate expressly to guardians of minors the parameters of the law and how medical care will be administered. The institution operating the “blood conservation program” in the above case routinely utilizes acknowledgement statements in circumstances involving the medical care of minors whose parents seek to refuse blood transfusions. These statements serve as a tool ensuring and documenting that clear and complete disclosure of the hospital’s intentions are conveyed to the patient’s guardians . . .Failure of the parents to sign such a document would not alter the care administered to the minor under North Carolina law in the event a life saving [sic] transfusion is required. From a legal and ethical standpoint, the statement serves to document formally that a clear dialogue was conducted between the hospital and the parents regarding the emergent administration of blood products.”

  Paul R. Brezina & John C. Moskop, Urgent Medical Decision Making Regarding a Jehovah’s Witness Minor: A Case Report and Discussion, 68 NC MED J 312, 314 (2007).
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  Of course parents force court orders; they force the hospital to seek them

  So what's your point?

  Your paragraph can be summed in one clean sentence: parents, while unable to actively seek a court order, can passively force a court order by refusing to provide the hospital consent to provide life-sustaining treatment to their minor child.

  Now, what does that have to do with whether or not the LoUs indicate a change in WTBTS blood policy?

  The following was your original assertion: The fact is that a couple of decades ago, it was commonplace for parents to force a court order, whereas now they will sign this letter and not pursue their legal rights, whether they formally waive them or not.

  What evidence do you have that JW parents' behavior has changed? What evidence do you have that they used to passively force court order but now they sign these LoUs and "do not pursue their legal rights?"

  The LoU/Acknowledgement Statements are legally useless documents; therefore, there is no harm to the WTBTS if JWs sign these.

  Respectfully, I do not think this is the issue. The WTBTS cannot be legally "harmed" no matter the outcome.

  Again, what's your point?

  Allow me to rephrase my statement: The LoU/Acknowledgement Statements are legally useless documents; therefore, an HLC member can recommend the parent sign them and there is no harm to the parents' legal rights to latter oppose a blood transfusion. Consequently, there is no harm to the WTBTS's blood policy.

  So, now that we have that fixed, what does whether or not the WTBTS can be '"legally harmed" have to do with the topic of this thread, which is whether or not the LoUs indicate a change in WTBTS policy? (BTW, I didn't say they were legally harmed; the harm would be to the perceived integrity of its policy.)

  As I said, I'm open to being persuaded. However, your responses to my posts have done nothing more than muddy the waters by pointing out errors in my merely tangentially-linked statements. These are commonly known as 'red herring' arguments. While I appreciate your concern that all my statements be the most literally accurate, I am still looking for persuasive arguments.

  Do you have any evidence that these LoUs indicate a change in the WTBTS's blood policy as is the assertion in the article, your assertion, and the title of this thread?
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  Would any decent parent bother litigating a case of attempted rape because it appears they will most likely lose?!!

  Parents have no authority to bring a criminal attempted (or actual) rape case; that is left to the sole discretion of a prosecutor. They can bring a civil case though.

  However, prosecutors must drop many cases because parents will not allow their children to testify because they fear there will be no conviction (i.e., they will most likely lose). And parents frequently do not pursue civil cases for the same reason.

  I don't think that makes them less than "decent" parents; it's a risk/benefit calculation based upon what they perceive to be the best interest of their child.

  It may be morally bankrupt, but the WTBTS is not legally obtuse, and I'm sure it makes these same litigation risk/benefit calculations. Nevertheless, selective litigation is not synonymous with a change in policy.

  Yet, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. As it stands, the hard evidence is not very compelling. The only evidence for a change in policy is the discussion of the LoU by a non-JW who opined that he thinks this may signal a change in policy.

  The evidence against a change in policy is the fact that this document has been used since ~1998, with no official change. In fact, from 1998-2010, there were multiple cases in which JWs legally challenged blood transfusions to minors.
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  The fact is that a couple of decades ago, it was commonplace for parents to force a court order, whereas now they will sign this letter and not pursue their legal rights, whether they formally waive them or not.

  Parents don't "force" court orders; hospitals seek court orders. The hospitals need court orders to obtain the necessary custody to overrule the parents' refusal.

  It's about what the HLCs are telling parents in conjunction with these forms.

  Agreed. That's why the LoUs do not indicate a change in policy. The HLC can tell the parents to sign the LoUs with the understanding that IF the child's condition worsens and the hospital seeks temporary custody, the parents/JWs will fight the order.

  It's not just about whether legal rights have been disclaimed or not.

  Actually, the above is precisely what this is all about. The LoU/Acknowledgement Statements are legally useless documents; therefore, there is no harm to the WTBTS if JWs sign these. Now, if the HLC said parents could sign a document that allows the hospitals to transfuse and the AND that the parents' disclaim any legal recourse, the document would be better evidence of a policy change.
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  Or, it could be a non-JW writer, who had no idea that the HLCs have been promoting these non-legally binding, feel-good Letters of Understanding in other countries for decades, jumping the gun and announcing a 'change' in the WTBTS stance when no such change has happened.

  If it's a deviation of the policy from the 1980's or early 1990's, it's still a change. The offical word in the literature used to be that it was akin to rape and transfusions should be resisted at all costs.

  A JW could sign a LoU and subsequently still fight a blood transfusion claiming it against his or her religious mores and akin to rape because LoUs do not affect the legal rights of either the JW or the hospital.

  The thing is, why bother litigating a case in which in the end it appears the Witnesses will most likely lose?

  I suspect you are correct Davidl7. I posted the following on the other thread:

  I think the Letter of Understanding and HLC’s willingness to cooperate is due to a clarification of Canadian law and not a softening the JW blood prohibition.

  The article specifically states that the Ethics Committee discussed the “relevant” case of AC v. Manitoba. That case established the bright-line rule that in Manitoba, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Quebec, and Newfoundland, the court—not physicians—must decide whether or not a child under the age of 16 may refuse life-sustaining treatment. Since this case was “relevant,” I suspect this hospital was in one of those provinces. Therefore, the HLC had nothing to lose because if the hospital wanted to transfuse, the case would automatically obtain judicial review and more bad press.

  Other Canadian provinces examine the minor’s capacity to consent (or refuse) treatment as opposed to the minor’s age.
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  57

  Watchtower softens position on Jehovah' Witnesses and blood transfusions? Canadian National Post Story.

  by Balaamsass in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  without fanfare, jehovahs witnesses quietly soften position on blood transfusionstom blackwell, national post staff | dec 20, 2012 9:59 pm et.

  more from national post staff.

  calgary herald/fileslawrence hughes broke with the witnesses, and the rest of his own family, when it tried to prevent his teenage daughter, bethany, who died in 2002, from receiving a blood transfusion while being treated for cancer.twittergoogle+linkedinemailcommentsmoretumblrpinterestredditdiggfarkitstumbleuponfor years, the jehovahs witnesses fiercely held belief that blood transfusions are contrary to gods will led to emotional and very public disputes, hospitals clashing with parents over whether to infuse sick children.. that long history of messy legal confrontations appears to be vanishing, however, amid changing approaches to the issue on both sides, health-care officials say.. the churchs ban on accepting blood still stands, but some major pediatric hospitals have begun officially acknowledging the parents unorthodox beliefs, while many jehovahs witnesses are signing letters recognizing that doctors may sometimes feel obliged to transfuse, they say.. as institutions show more respect toward parents faith and try harder not to use blood, witnesses often seem eager to avoid involving child-welfare authorities to facilitate transfusions, and more accepting that canadian case law is firmly on the doctors side, some hospital officials say.. they get it that were going to transfuse where its medically necessary.

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  Justitia Themis

  This was not the Watchtower position in the past, so it is a change

  It appears the Watchtower has been using these tactics for quite some time, perhaps even as early as the 1990s. If so, the Letters of Understanding are not evidence of a change in position.

  For a more complete discussion, see the following thread:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/244052/1/Blood-transfusion-Letter-of-Understanding
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  10

  Obamacare and how it affects JWs

  by Rattigan350 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while i think that obamacare is bad for forcing people to get health insurance by penalizing them for not having it; it is going to hit jws hard.. so many brag on the assembly parts that they quit corporate jobs to pioneer, but they don't get insurance after that.. there are many that are pioneer couples or single pioneers that are just doing small jobs like cleaning that can't afford insurance, so they don't get it.

  they will want to be obedient to caesar and have to get it next year, straining their budgets.

  or if they don't get it, they will have to pay the penalty.. we will see how that plays out next year..

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  Justitia Themis

  The ACA was upheld in its entirety by the Supreme Court.

  Almost correct. The ACA's individual mandate and its penalty was upheld as a valid exercise of Congress' Taxing and Spending powers, but the Medicaid expansion was declared unconstitutionally coercive.

  Here is a penalty flowchart:

  http://healthreform.kff.org/the-basics/requirement-to-buy-coverage-flowchart.aspx
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  20

  Musings on today's dishonest text.

  by Slidin Fast in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  Justitia Themis

  Interesting quote regarding Acts 17:11 from a Commentary:

  http://www.godvine.com/bible/Acts/17-11

  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica - Ησαν ευγενε?εροι, Were of a better race, extraction, or birth, than those at Thessalonica; but the word refers more to their conduct, as a proof of their better disposition, than to their birth, or any peculiar lineal nobility. It was a maxim among the Jews, that "none was of a noble spirit who did not employ himself in the study of the law." It appears that the Bereans were a better educated and more polished people than those at Thessalonica; in consequence far from persecuting:
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  14

  1969 Kingdom Ministry PDF

  by cabasilas in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for those interested in collecting the pdfs of the kingdom ministry for research purposes.. as is well known, the watchtower library cd-rom starts its coverage of kms in 1970. however, the kms from 1966 to 1969 show a bit more of the excitement relating to the prediction that 6,000 years of man's existence would run out in the year 1975.. the 1969 kingdom ministry (51 mb) can be downloaded here:.

  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=hrm4yyx7.

  the scans were done and shared by invetigator74.

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  Justitia Themis

  I clicked on the links, and it says the domain name has been seized for under the anti-piracy statutes.